Advice for new Bretonnian Player sought.

Hello all. I wondered if I could pick your brains.

So I've been playing Skaven since 1997 (my first and only Warhammer army so far), and while I love them to bits and I'm not getting rid of them, I'm a bit tired of their basic inadequacies. Their shooting, while effective when it's working, never works (my Warp-Lightning Cannon in particular misfires easily 80% of the time...). My massive carpets of troops are cheap, numerous and expendable, but utterly, utterly incompetent in combat against just about everything. So I thought I'd start a second army.

I've decided on Bretonnians. They have cavalry, archers and flyers, stuff I've never been able to have before, they're effective combat units (at least, that's the plan), and they're both faster and much more durable than anything I've had previously. I know it comes with tradeoffs, of course: there'll be less of them (where's the rest of the army? ), there's less war machiney goodness, and there aren't the overtly cool fantasy stuff that other armies get (hell pit abominations, giant spiders, un-living marble statues etc.).

So can anyone provide me with starting advice? Should I take a few big units or lots of little ones? What strategic paradigms should I be adopting? What shouldn't I be doing if I want to stand a chance of winning?

You really think skaven are that bad ?

I have a Bret army that is very much a work in progress and unlikely to see much action because I'm a tree-huggin' hippy lover. Nevertheless, I can contribute a few points. Brets have an old army book and struggle at the most competitive level, but they have many positive points. The Field Trebuchet is one of the best war-machines there is. Peasant archers can all get flaming attacks from the braziers and have BS3 longbows. Men-at-Arms are a cheap, viable choice for hordes. Pegaus Knights were very good in 7th Edition, and while losing the 360o LoS has nerfed them slightly, the vanguard move makes them very mobile indeed. Run a mix of big lances (12-15 knights) and smaller support lances on your Knights of the Realm and Errant Knights. Grail Knights are awesome - get lots. Oh, and the Green Knight.

I don't think Skaven are bad (I wouldn't have stuck with them this long if they were), but... Well, put it this way:

Dave Jakowyszyn's Goblins are the ONLY army I've defeated since 6th Edition. They're that bad.

The problem with Skaven is that if you're lucky, they're fine, and if you're unlucky they're terrible, but if your luck is only slightly above average they're still terrible. They never EVER win combats even when they really should (a good example is the game that knocked me out of the tournament: 7 Phoenix Guard routed 40 Skaven (in two units) off the board in a single round of combat without even having to take an armour save in response.). They are entirely dependent on static combat resolution to win, but can't generate enough of it to overtake the kill points most enemies WILL get. There's plenty of units to play with, but this often works to undermine themselves as they crowd out each other's charge lanes. And if in doubt, the enemy can casually say "challenge" and instantly win combat by a comfortable margin. I even have a policy of never even playing against Dwarfs because the chance of either victory or having fun approach zero (I've never once seen a Dwarf army lose to anyone, least of all myself, in all my fourteen years of playing).

I'd love to have an army where my combat troops stand some chance of winning combat. I'd love ranged attacks that a) ever actually fire, and b) fire at the enemy rather than themselves. I'd love to play a game where my chance of winning doesn't revolve entirely around "did my Grey Seer manage to roll Plague in his spell list, and will I actually be able to cast it". I love Skaven, but I never have fun playing because I spend all my time noticing how they fail spectacularly at even the most basic tasks they are supposedly designed to do.

That's quite a rant, isn't it? I'm not usually such a miserable curmudgeon. It's possible that either I'm still a rubbish player, or Skaven require a very specialised skill set that I can't get to work, but that would be all the more reason to find an army I can use effectively.

Ok cool all I was thinking is that I play skaven and I do want them to be competitive. As I don't mind loosing some games but not all. And I do like tomb kings lol. After playing against brets they are good in my eyes strong hard hitting units. Can you pm me a standard 1500 or 2000 point skaven army just so I can see please.

Bretonnians do look like they hit hard, and their high armour save means they'll be able to weather those occasions when they're unlucky and get bogged down.

My one reservation with them (their out of date rules can't be helped, so I'll not dwell on them too much) is that they look like the Steadfast rule really kicks them in the balls. Winning combat by a comfortable margin doesn't do much if the enemy don't run away (which makes me wonder about Undead as well...).

I originally thought that slabs of Men-at-Arms would be the answer, but upon closer inspection they'd likely prove a liability (enemy kills them easily, which swings the combat resolution back in their favour, the Men-at-Arms may then be Steadfast but the Knights they're supporting won't be, so instead of winning combat but not breaking the enemy you've instead got Knights running away... Not good.)

I've got my 2400 point list I was using which I'll PM you. I don't have a smaller one to hand, I'd have to build it, but that one should give you some idea of my design strategy.

Have you thought about doing an Empire army? They have cheep knights, better infantry and war machines than the Bretts. There army book is more currant than the Brett book and frankly the Empire Army is more competitive than the Bretts.

Bretts are fun to play with as long as you remember to pray ( to get the ward save), as Rob said the green Knight is awesome. they are rumoured to be be getting a new book soon, if the rumours are right its between them and wood elves after ogres. stepping up has hurt them a bit,
but there are some very cool armies out there. mousillon using undead armiesbeing the most popular and i did stumble upon this one
https://cross-swords.forumotion.net/gallery/Personal-album-of-andy-white/andy-s-traitor-brettonian-legion-pic_9.htm


I think i'm right in mentioning the painting, whilst your model count is very low ( my blurry photo is a little over 4k), the reason you don't see many bretts on the table and fewer finished, is the demanding painting, the reason i stuck to a unified scheme . Pete Myhill of PaW fame do have some great painted knights , with his Pegasus knights on greek style columns but still hasn't finished the army.

but go for it no one likes Empire anyway< thats why Owen moved, just to get a game

Bretts are cool in essence and to be fair in 8th require a much more defined and specialised skill set to play them effectively much more so than skaven. Skaven are one of the very top armies if not the top army in 8th edition. They have an answer for anything out there. For example, when i play with my dwarfs I hate playing skaven, they are a nightmare match up for dwarfs. 2 things come to mind instantly
1) storm banner
2) screaming bell of instant war machine destructionness.

But thats bye the bye. Brettonians are one of the only armies able to take heroic killing blow, which can be monstrously funny to watch a guy chopping a steam tank in 2. The prob with bretts is as you have mentioned, they can no longer easily blow units away on the charge and then they dont do well in the grind match in subsequent turns, where their charge bonuses are lost. You then have a long unit stuck in combat ready to be flanked. Men at arms are a good remedy to this as they give you the static combat resolution to help in the grind and if you have a damsel with beasts, you can buff them up some as well.

But to be totally fair whatever army i play, I love seeing bretts opposite me as they are quite a one dimensional army and if you are skillfull and lucky enough you can negate all their plus points and utilise their weaknesses. In my last 3 games vs bretts with VC and dwarfs they have all been 20-0 to me whereas against skaven things are much closer.

But if you like the look of bretts go for your life and who knows you may even revolutionise the way they play. If you do like the human theme though, i would strongly echo Owens suggestion for empire as you can take a knightly army, but any wizards you take can choose any lore rather than just beasts or life. Warmachines are more varied and cover many situational needs, and they have a tank!!

Dont worry about the old book, by the time you have painted one unit with full livery the new book will be out